Creativity the showdown

[Chance1234]

Right firslty a few things i want to get established,

1.the whole argument about selling out is an immature, uneducated cr*p argument(prove me wrong heres your invitation to do so )

2.Like it or not we live in a capitalistic world, for those of you who dont know

Capitaliam:= Money can be exchange for goods and services.

communism has been tried and failed, and i really personally dont get the difference between socialism and communism.

3.Creativity has nothing to do with money, background, education or any of that other crap.


I believe that there is no dictionary definition of creativity and there is no such thing as having no creativity. Creativity is like speech, site, hearing.writing, Its down to the individual how they use it, also i believe it is firmly possible for say an accountant to be creative doing accounts for example. Hell god knows ive been creative on my tax return J we all use creativity whether we aware of it every day in our lives.

But here where the difference come in, some people who for the purposes of this thread we will call Artists are prepared to take it a bit further, and do. Whether that be to express themselves make a point or simply to confuse the hell out of people. They use it as there tool. The same way a surgeon uses his hands, a pilot uses his judgement etc.

What i believe makes the difference between a good artist and a bad artist is passion. To be honest i cant understand fringe theatre one bit i can appreciate the guys and lasses with the shows on have got that otherwise they wouldnt be there, i will probably never ever write a poem in my life but reading poetry, sometimes you come across something that really hits you. No matter what the form, there is always this passion blended in with creativity.

Ok now coming to myself, firslty want to make one thing clear. Yes i have a ten thousand pound budget, but i have worked damm hard to get that, no one has given that to me, i have no silver spoon it has all been of my own back. Also even though i hate to say the guys name ?Rodriguez? also got the money for his film my having strange things stuck up his arse and taking funny tablets. On the other scale Lucas blagged his first budget, Alex what ever his name off of movie virgins, dad ran one of the biggest film distribution companies in germany. But there are great films made on low budget great films made on big budgets. What is important is how you go about it yourself, that what makes you unique, why we arent all as a race sitting in a room in front of typewriters with some scientist in the corner waiting for one of use to come up with the works of shakespeare.

Heres the reasonyself have chosen to devote myself to film, dont want to be egotistical but believe this is the best way of getting my view of creativity across.

Thing I like best about film, is the whole illusion thing for whether its a minute or three hours as a film maker you can grab someone out of reality and place them into escapism which is brilliant ! i know other art forms can do that, but for me personally film seems to be the best tool to get that across.


Thearte i find to limited, writing i really enjoy but its a sideline, painting i love but have to be in the right frame of mind, last time that was about 3 years ago J With film though i have found something where i can combine all my talents into one. Whether it be creating an image to running a budget.

Also one of the things i love is that for a few brief moments of your life you are playing god, you are creating the background and your characters to your story, the trick is to be able to pull it off.
Also i thrive on the challenge of getting people to work for free, blowing up a building for less than a ?100, turning an innocent train journey into a nightmare.

I went into this with the attittude that if you want to do anything in life just go out there and do it, and im pulling every damm trick i know to do that.

About the productions im making at the moment, i want to make one point clear. These are not really the films i want to spend my life making. So why am i making them ? well the main reason is to home my skills. For Deadlights at the afore coming ?Mortus Illumina? they are both horror. Reason i chose horror was because i can believ eyou can be most creative and visual on a low budget in this genre, where else are you going to stick evil Nuns, and people having tons of blood squirting out of them along with the burnt fingers and weird satanic rituals. To me horror is fantastic visually and a great place to start. Deadlights has always been a back shelf project, but i got it made and it wernt easy. Check out my site under production. I had to bribe locations, work out away to blow up a building with no money, and basicly i did all the pre-production myself and a lot of the production toi solve these problems. And what it proved to me is that yes i can make a film, plus my attitude is now if i can blow up a building for less than a ?100 quid i can do pretty much anything.


the other film made was Gratuitis nudity which was my attempt at making a point, that was great fun getting ready as managed to get one of my crews girlfriends to go naked for freee, unfortunatly the film was lost when it was being transfered but we are doing a 35MM shot of it shortly which i intend to take to cannes.

Also last year produced, Mikers Ad-Astra. Miker has tons more experience than me and i was really pleased when he asked us to produce his film for him, also it was a fantastic oppotunity to see another director work, i know me and mike are two different directors also jsut being the producer on the piece gave me a good oppotunity to start homing those production skills, manage to bring it in under budget, which im pleased with.

Mortus Illumina my current production, im putting every trick i have learnt into this production, if you like this is my graduation film. One of the things on Deadlights is i werent getting my cut points in, but i know im going to knock this on the head this time around, also the main aim is to get a definate pre-production pattern sorted. also once we have our final crew and cast in place there will be over 50 people involved in this production.

mmm im drifting a bit here, but getting back on track no matter how wonderful or creative you think you are, your not going to be the best at everything, there is not the time in the world of the brain capacity to be brilliant at every job and more importantly be able to push the creativity and passion in that are needed to get get great results, hence one of the reasons i go for a crew. Every job in film is an art in its own right, i think next to directing, Edititors and DOP are a big part of the picture. and finding the people to do those jobs is not easy. creativity is not just a solo effort, to make a good film takes the talents of many people pulling together and for my films, i want to get the best people i can possible get with my budget to do that. for me getting those crew together have been part of my creative proces. I have a definate image in my mind how the film should look and it has taken a lot of time and effort to get the right people to bring that image across.

I guess what im trying to say here is that creativity is not just about what is in your mind and what you can do , it is how you can communicate it to other people, also there is a great technical side as well. which the only way to learn is to go out there and do it. and its not just the final product its all the work that goes into it is all part of that proccess. anyone can go out there and buy a DV camera and shoot a film, anyone can go out there and blag a camera and make a film.

So does creativity make a good or bad film ?

Im sure we have all seen the infamous film Ed-Wood, also check out the book as well , for me its my worse nightmare. his films were terrible does that mean he wasnt creative ? of course not. in all fairness you have got to give Ed-Wood a lot of credit, . he really believed in what he was doing had this great vision of mixing in stock footage into his films to create mass exciting films, unfortunatly he got it slightly wrong and true fact he couldnt work out himself why his films werent doing brilliant at the box office. was it down to his creativity ? no.

Going a bit more specific here, Creativity doesnt make a good or bad film its one of the many components that go together, theres also Vision, passion, enthusiasm, commitment etc theres also on a more technical side, theres the script, the lighting, the sound, the post, the acting, the crew etc etc then theres the skills you have in yourself as being able to improvise and adapt, people skills, communication etc etc.

now heres a question, do all the above go together to make creativity or is creativity visible in all of them in there own rights or are they all totally independant ?


Chance


PS> I have a conffesion to make on the way back from the train today i was thinking through this topic in my head, and was going to go in with all fire and brimstones of an argument, had it all worked out in my head too, but starting to write this i found myself keep sidetracking from the point i wanted to make, i wanted to keep this all creativity based but the more i have tried to do that the more i realise what i and a lot of other filmmakers already know s that a hell of a lot more goes into a film then just creativity. creativity doesnt make a film on its own

------------------
5YLAC Films

www.itkoa.co.uk

http://www.lookingglass.atfreeweb.co...ghts/index.htm

download the deadlights trailer at

<http://www.lookingglass.atfreeweb.co...s/images/deadl
ights_trailer1.rm>

[machead]

My opinion of creativity and budget is this;
I took a shot that cost a few pence (this shot was up for Independant B&W photo Award a couple of years ago ).
Similarly I did a shot for my folio that cost me about ?2000 last year (that was up for an I.D.E.A award a few months ago)
I personally think that the cheap shot is alot better than the expensive one.
But again some people can only regard something as being good by how much it cost them (these people generally have no subjective opinion but seem to think they can buy one)
Money can't buy creativity is my point, but in the same sense it can help someone who is creative.

[Chuck Noland]

...

[This message has been edited by Chuck Noland (edited February 06, 2001).]

[miker]

To me creativity is a skill that augments design skills. I treat a film as a piece of design, you are designing a way to get a reaction from an audience. As a director your vehicle for that design is your actors and everyone else who is working around you, and then how you decide to put it all together.

And what is *the* rule of design?

Form follows function.

[eddie]

I think honesty plays a big part too. I think that comes under the umbrella of passion in your 'list' above, but for me the word is honesty instead.

As long as you show it as you see it to the best of your ability, then you cant fail.

[ninjamonkie]

Chance:
1. I would say that this argument actually is an educated one. You need to understand what a sellout is, what an artist
is, and what passion (or desire etc) is.
A sellout, is one who makes things that he really doesn't want to, because the money is more important to him than
the art. There is nothing wrong about being one, it's just that a sellout is not an artist. An artist is one who makes his
art because of a desire (or passion, etc).
Of course it can be immature to use the argument, but the argument is not immature. I appriciate art, but very seldom
sellout productions. I wanted to encourage artists, who might come here, to not be sellouts. There is enough of that
already.

2. Do you mean that it's immature to call one a sellout when he knows he is one? What you are saying about capitalism is
why one needs to be a sellout. About ideologies there are not only left and right (capitalism and communism).

3. Correct.

4. Creativity has a meaning, and the dictionary's definition is very good.
You seem to be talking about how to use creativity, or when it's good to have it.

It might not be perfect, but it's good enough to make one that doesn't know what it means understand.


5. Without a lots of passion AND creativity an artist is very unlikely to be good.

6. You have a 10k budget, and there is nothing bad about that. Money has nothing to do with how good the art
is, only how appriciated it is by the right (rich) ppl.

7. The best sellout film is one that grabs someone out of reality during the film. Art tho, can be a big part
of someones life. It can change your basic views of everything, putting you back to a baby's state of mind. A
successful piece of art is what sellouts later will try to imitate.

Chance, i think you are honest, and that's good. What i say is not to FUCK with anybody, but just to make
them think (and did i succeed?).

[Chance1234]

1.I dont one hundred percent agree with your definition of a sellout, i think a sell out has a greater wider definition. and i say it hasnt got anything to do with creativity. either. you can be a sellout working with money too. in some ways i sold out of the city, but thats another story,

what i mean by a crap argument etc it is a bit like the old school playgorund "He started it" or when you dont say support the same football team as someone else and they turn round and call you a w*nker you know that sort of thing.

3.Glad we agree on something
4.Thats my opinion on creative, i believe it is something like, sight, sound, etc etc to other people its other things,

5.and a ton more stuff as well such as imgination, vision etc but then again how we perceive other peoples work is totally down to us, I love this snippet, John lennon was being interviewed and the interviewer asked him if you could be inside anyone elses head who would it be, and he just replied anybodys, just to see if they saw red the same way i saw it. also you could be the most creative passionate person in the world but not know how to use, ever wonder why some people for example have brilliant singing careers try acting and fail miserably and vice versa etc . One thing that is also needed is talent, plus the drive determination etc.

6.agree/disagree "only how appriciated it is by the right (rich) ppl." is the bit i disagree with, to vague.

7.yeah and naye that can work both ways, wouldnt you say a film is Art ? also cant film be a big part of life too plus cant a picture for example grab you out of reality ?

to me voicing my opinion is just as important, as everything else i do and i respect that not everyone is going to agree with me. what p*sses me off though is people who arent prepared to answer back or just put one or two line answers or unthought arguments, then i go into gunning mode. its when discussion turns argument for no reason.


just out of curiosity, what side of the pond are you on Ninja monkey ?


Chance


------------------
5YLAC Films
www.itkoa.co.uk
www.lookingglass.atfreeweb.com/desktop/deadlights/index.htm

download the deadlights trailer at

<http://www.lookingglass.atfreeweb.co...s/images/deadl
ights_trailer1.rm>

[This message has been edited by Chance1234 (edited February 07, 2001).]

[ninjamonkie]

I must say that i'm disappointed with your answer. I read through your first post and answered what i thought about the different things you said. Then you answered me back... And i don't really get what you are saying. And what happened to #2? You complain about ppl who don't think thru the answers and then you do this!

And this was a really short post by you too, how come? Is it because i answered a long one, and your combat mode was reversed?

About the pond - i don't choose a side, i have my opinions, and i don't change them to make they who i like look better, or vice versa.

[miker]

What we need is a few case studies on 'sell-out'.

Did George Lucas sell-out from doing his art-house documentaries when Coppola offered to produce THX1138 ??

Did Coppola sell-out by doing a Coke advert?

Has David Lynch sold-out for that 'third place' PS2 advert?

I think all these people have grown, and are just earning a living, perhaps some of the passion for a 'shake up and wake up' movie has gone. But when they were young and angry they did some of their best work.

But as you grow, priorities do change too believe it or not.

I am what some might call a 'family man', so I am juggling supporting a family with filmmaking, which is leading me down many different paths. Some lead nowhere fast, others are still being travelled.

I am developing a sitcom with bite with certain other members of this board, it is being made into a pilot and we intend to license it for broadcast.

Does that make me a sell-out?

No!

I'm only licensing the rights, not *selling* them ;-)

Does that make me a bigger sell-out, because I want to re-sell it globally under license.

Or does it mean I am not a sell-out, because I want to maintain a degree of control over my 'product'.

Or does it mean I'm finally tired of being exploited and shafted by the industry and want to carve my own niche, no matter how hard the rock may be?

Does the industry even exist, or is it just a symbiotic relationship between artists and salesmen? Or circles of friends with the motivation to make a film?

Remember, we do not live in a perfect world. And, dare I say it, none of us are perfect either.

Art can make the world a better place (just look at good vs bad building architecture), but today all things are market driven. If no-one sees your art, then how can it make a difference other than to yourself? (which is no bad thing either, but I believe every artist craves attention, they want their work to be seen)

Well, I seem to have lost track of the point I was trying to make. Perhaps there's just no money in it ;-)

[Chance1234]

firstly that comment re the pond wasnt a dig, i meant which side of the atlantic you are on.

also yes i do think its immature to call someone a sellout or comment on there creativity with out checking out what they have done etc. please feel free to rip through my trailer which yo can download from the link at the bottom of my posts. also re sellout

for me to be a sellout i guess it would be me more turning my back on film.

in the last yeari have been head hunted twice,firstly to become an intrim management consultant secondly to become a kpi consultant both salaries ?100,000 + plus bonuses also i had an offer to try out for mckenzie and co. all times i have turned them down.

reason is because i have faith in what iam doing plus a hell of a lot of other people do a well.and a hell of a lot people hae done a hell of a lot of work for us, my crew at the moment is 35+ i have people like the sfx artist from mummy2 and the dop from music videos such as oasis and a ton of feature exoerience, i have tons of pros working for us for free many have stuck around for a long time too. plus i get a great deal of interest in what iam ding,check out wax magazine in abot two monthstime and there will be an interview wih yours truly

also going back to creativity, you dont know my processes or anybody elses, tell you i think when i first started this all out one of the first films i saw wa eddies of this board circs of the dammend. i was at the premmiere it wa fantastic ,best think i liked about it was that you could tell from the film everybody had such a good time making it and it wa your real guerilla film making finesse, favourite part of the film is with the bat

but please check out my trailer,also if you dont want to take my word about how i work goto the production section on my website and read what everyone else had to say about it,

anyway theres a nice barmaid in here at the moment and im missing out on valuable drinking time

////chance



------------------
5YLAC Films

www.itkoa.co.uk

http://www.lookingglass.atfreeweb.co...ghts/index.htm

download the deadlights trailer at

&lt;http://www.lookingglass.atfreeweb.co...s/images/deadl
ights_trailer1.rm&gt;